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by da_opposition from North County

Last Post 271 days, 20 hours Ago


City Officer runs out of ammo!
Mar 6, 2008 | 11:19 AM
Category: News
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Very scary situation, a city Police Officer in a gun battle with suspects, runs out of bullets and the suspect still had enough to continue his onslaught against the Officer. 

 

 

 

Why doesn’t city Police have more firepower?  Is it budget reasons or is St. Louis a city with not enough violent crime to arm their Officers better?  Recently the city Police dept. purchased 9mm carbine rifles for some Officer to carry in their squad cars.  The carbine rifle isn’t no more than mid caliber gun designed to be a little more accurate than the service semi-auto pistol carried by every Officer.  The 9mm caliber is considered a high speed projectile that won’t penetrate 1/2”inch into a telephone book at 25 yards.  The suspects are carrying assault weapons that fire ammo that can pierce a car’s engine block and go threw a telephone book at 50 yards.  This rifle is just an extension of their already ineffective service handgun.  

 

 

 

Saint Louis County Police armed their supervisors with AR-15 assault rifles which are more powerful than the city Police Rifle but still not as powerful as the AK-47 the preferred weapon of street thugs and standard issue to terrorist world wide. 

 

 

 

I understand the concern for civilian casualties by the use of high powered assault weapons; today maybe 100 rounds were fired with no casualties and suspects escaped.  When bullets start firing and civilians are present, I would want the trained Officer to able to out gun the suspect and end his rampage permanently.

 

 

 

Today reminds of an experience I had in 1993, over 100 shots fired, 1 civilian killed by gang members, one 7 year old shot by gang members and we where out gunned, Three Officers in my unit at the time including myself ran out of ammo, one Officer even used a thrown suspect’s rifle to keep them at bay from possibly killing us.   Any City or County Officer for that matter can at anytime be faced with the situation that happened today.  These dirt bags travel armed to the tee everyday, we need our Police Officers, Sheriffs, Security & Corrections people armed like LAPD, if they are to protect the nations most violent city.

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Member Comments Total Comments: 24
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Chickenkiller read my blog
Mar 6, 2008 | 2:26 PM

da-opposition - Here's your answer. The City of St. Louis PD went to the 9mm Beretta Storm rifle because they had very few of the female officers that were capable of qualifying with the 12 ga shotgun. That's probably the same reason that they haven't upgraded from the 9mm to the .40 S&W since it's been a major difficulty in getting the women qualified with the 9mm.

So, in the interest of political correctness, they're putting all of their officers in danger by equipping their officers with weapons that are not up to the task at hand.
mechany144 read my blog view my photos
Mar 6, 2008 | 3:42 PM

If they had any brains all police forces would be equipped with the M-4 carbine. Great weapon, light weight very little recoil.
Speedy62269 read my blog
Mar 6, 2008 | 5:40 PM

It won't hurt to go overkill and do what "Uncle Tom" (UT) said. I don't know if the reasoning was so "women" could qualify for certain firearms ... maybe the City got a deal on a "fleet" purchase of the current weapon being used.

I have hired female officers and their scores in both physical and firearm testing was equal to or above the majority of male officers. I don't believe it's a gender issue rather the criminals have more firepower.
da_opposition read my blog view my photos
Mar 6, 2008 | 6:24 PM

M 4- is that the 30 cal or 30 carbine, if so not a bad round, extra mags would not be problem to carry with that round.

I havn't seen other deparmtments have problems arming women with 40cals.

City got a deal, on parts and all that, but Officers could also purchase themselves threw the armory and carry a S&W 9mm used by some detectives and or a Sig Saur 9mm that's was too exspensive for most.
mechany144 read my blog view my photos
Mar 6, 2008 | 7:13 PM

The M-4 is the carbine version of the M-16.
Sure, it is a light round, .223, but there are many good API rounds available for it. And let me tell ya, when you are hit with a round from one it will either kill ya or make you wish you were dead. They tumble on entry and produce massive damage. And the API round will penetrate 1/4" of steel at 100 yards.
Carried that rifle for many years, would trust it with my life, and have.
Chickenkiller read my blog
Mar 6, 2008 | 7:28 PM

Speedy - On a purchase of 1300+ units the city is going to get a deal from ANY supplier. They bought the Beretta 92 9mm's originally 10+ years ago and now they've traded those in for exact copies of what they originally bought. Pricing in .40 S&W and 9mm is exactly the same.

They take on women for e-e-e-qual opportunity and end up getting not quite cream-of-the crop that can barely qualify once they go through the drug screening. I'd tell you a story in email about what happened during the last remedial qualification.

Mechany - M-4 should indeed be the choice. They just bought AR15's and issued them to Sergeants however they haven't done training so they're currently not on the street.

Actually, I like your personal selection, the 10mm. Is yours a Delta Elite, Glock or S&W 1006?
mechany144 read my blog view my photos
Mar 6, 2008 | 7:47 PM

S&W all the way brother. I have owned a number of firearms over the years and will emphatically state that Smith and Wesson make the best sidearms out there. In a weapon reliability is #1.
Heck, sometimes I think the cops should all have BAR's! They are way out gunned nowadays.
The AR-15 is a okay choice, but it is after all a fairly large rifle. The M-4 is a lot smaller and easier to wield in a building. Why do you think most special forces troops select it as their main weapon? And they have a wide choice of the weapon they will carry.
Chickenkiller read my blog
Mar 6, 2008 | 8:01 PM

Mechany - I've got one of those too! A S&W 1006. I've relegated myself to a Commander sized 1911 style .45 auto as it conceals easier than the large frame S&W. Save your brass after a practice shooting session as it's gotten rather pricey and I do reload it.
Speedy62269 read my blog
Mar 6, 2008 | 8:05 PM

Chicken: True on deals but the BEST deal is what they probably settled for. I guess it's sort of like Alamo initially grabbing tons of Kias on their rental fleets and now...uh um...not the best choice even though the lowest price.

I remember years ago many guns were taken off the streets with a no questions asked $100 voucher. Does this still exist in St. Louis?

I know little about the STLPD but do know that in certain areas you need 2 officers per squad car mainly at night (even though this was near noon). I am wondering why it took so long for the 2nd unit to arrive?
Chickenkiller read my blog
Mar 6, 2008 | 8:11 PM

da_opposition - The M-4 is essentially an AR15 with a collapsable butstock and shortened barrel. It fires the 5.56/.223 round currently in use by the military.

My buddy bought one of the 9mm S&W's that the City was allowing them to purchase. It's a compact frame stainless gun that is DAO with a trigger pull that would make you cry. In short, a piece of junk. It's only advantage to the 92 is that it's smaller and easier to conceal as an off-duty gun. Even though I own 5 S&W autos from 9mm to .45ACP I don't like them because the trigger actions are sloppy. Give me a SIG or a 1911 style any day.

See my notes to Mechany on qualifying female officers in the City.
TJCMO
Mar 6, 2008 | 8:18 PM

Guys, I belong to a local gun club where the various Police departments go to practice and qualify. If you ever want to see some pathetic shooting, watch these guys sometime. I personally saw an Arnold cop miss a life sized sillouette at 7 YARDS with a 12 Ga. Shotgun with 3 shots. Many more missed at the same distance with their pistols. Pretty poor shooting.
As far as the women officers, that was the reason for the FBI's decision to drop the 10MM, and go with the 40. The women and smaller men couln't handle the recoil of the 10MM. The 9MM is a total P.O.S. A 38 SPL would be better than the 9.
da_opposition read my blog view my photos
Mar 6, 2008 | 8:19 PM

My personal preference would be a 40cal Sig in my holster with my rack holding a rifle version of a MP5 40 or 45 cal., pistol caliber rifles work better for me on the streets in combat. Hauling mags for ar-15s is a little to bulky and mag holder does 2 pistol mags per each .223 mag.
da_opposition read my blog view my photos
Mar 6, 2008 | 8:31 PM

Speedy,

Two officers need to ride together all the time in the city, one man with mutliple suspects he won't stop to challenge them, too dangerous. This tactic to me has failed, me and my partner new we had backup with each other, and more with in minutes. The two of could clear many city blocks of gang members loitering because we could shake and cover. A one man car drives by looks and keeps going, his presence isn't felt by driving by, and he as a one man car is not going to risk his life knowing that his only help may be more than 1 minute away, and a lot can happen with in one minute.
Chickenkiller read my blog
Mar 6, 2008 | 8:52 PM

TJCMO - I rest my case!

And, an interesting point, the Beretta 92 has a 15 round double stack magazine, plus one in the chamber. The officers carry 2 extra clips in the belt pouch and managed to run out? 46 rounds from a single officer and nothing stopped?
Chickenkiller read my blog
Mar 6, 2008 | 8:55 PM

Speedy - email me at charter.net
Speedy62269 read my blog
Mar 6, 2008 | 9:07 PM

Yeah in the City of St. Louis no matter what "area" you never know when you'll be outside of your territory chasing someone or backing up another unit - they should really look into 2 per car. I believe this might have saved Norvelle Brown's life (possibly)

da_opposition: Your last few sentences sounds like what actually happened today but the officer didn't just drive by and it did take more than a minute for backup. He is very lucky.
Speedy62269 read my blog
Mar 6, 2008 | 9:10 PM

Chicken...ya got mail
da_opposition read my blog view my photos
Mar 6, 2008 | 9:15 PM

This just in, the Officer did not run out of Ammo, he just didn't get to use his weapon while he was dodging (4 lack of a better word) the gun shots, but he did empty his weapon into the car as the suspect was stealing it.
Speedy62269 read my blog
Mar 6, 2008 | 9:20 PM

I guess that's somewhat more positive....he still had the lifeline but where in the heck was backup during all this? If another officer would have shown up wouldn't a 2 on 1 have dominated this event and put the criminal to rest - literally?

da_opp: What type of squads are you using? I have heard lots of municipalities are having troubles with the Dodge Charger HEMI's. Most are going back to the Ford Crown Vics now that they've fixed the "rear-end" problem.
melmenendez read my blog view my photos
Mar 6, 2008 | 9:42 PM

These “thugs” are shooting at the police because they know that the police can’t really do anything about it. If the cops shoot a “thug” they get suspended pending investigation, to me that’s BS!! The ST. LOUIS CITY POLICE OFFICERS DO NOT HAVE A CHIFE THAT BACKS THEM!!!!!!!!! Who cares if another “thug” gets shot and dies by a cop, one less person we as normal citizens have to worry about: 1) getting shot by one of their stray bullets and 2) have to support in prison with our tax dollars. I mean really, if the suspect runs, why should there even be a chase? That admits guilt and should be shot!!! No “thug” can out run a bullet….that is if he is hit! I just really hope that things change and our police officers that put their lives on the line every minute that they are working to make the streets safe, can get the backing and support they deserve! I back the badge ;) always have and always will! BE SAFE
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da_opposition

Ex law-enforcement Officer; part-time Investigator & Security Professional... I believe in fair treatment for all. Life can deal anyone a bad blow. Don't make it your job to make that person's life any worse than it already is. Man to man should lend a helping hand.

Member Since: 10/16/2006


 

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