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by jfore

Last Post 30 days, 10 hours Ago


Every Democrat candidate has come up with his own version of HillaryCare. For those of you who are interested in HillaryCare and other Social Democrat Health Care plans, here's something from a Canadian on their socialized medical care plan. I have added my own comments after each point. I also did not correct any typos in the original.

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 Subject: Health Care

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. This was sent from Canada to a friend in the States.

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  saw on the news up here in Canada where Hillary Clinton introduced her new health care plan. Something similar to what we have in Canada. I also heard that Michael Moore was raving about the health care up here in Canada in his latest movie. As your friend and someone who lives with the Canada health care plan I thought I would give you some facts about this great medical plan that we have in Canada.

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First of all: 

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 1) The health care plan in Canada is not free. We pay a premium every month of $96 for Shirley and I to be covered. Sounds great eh. What they don't tell you is how much we pay in taxes to keep the health care system afloat. I am personally in the 55% tax bracket. Yes 55% of my earnings go to taxes. A large portion of that and I am not sure of the exact amount goes directly to health care our #1 expense.

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 Most Canadians pay out several hundred dollars a month in healthcare premiums. Low income families are exempt. According to the Canadian government that average tax burden in Canada is 40%. In the U.S. it averages just under 33%.

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 2) I would not classify what we have as health care plan, it is more like a health diagnosis system. You can get into to see a doctor quick enough so he can tell you "yes indeed you are sick or you need an operation" but now the challenge becomes getting treated or operated on. We have waiting lists out the ying yang some as much as 2 years down the road.

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The long waiting periods for care is why many Canadians opt to come to the United States and pay for their care. Of course this option is only open to the higher income groups. I like what Rudy Giuliani said yesterday. "If Hillary's health care plan gets implemented, where are the Canadians going to go for their heath care?" 

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3) Rather than fix what is wrong with you the usual tactic in Canada is to prescribe drugs. Have a pain here is a drug to take- not what is causing the pain and why. No time for checking you out because it is more important to move as many patients thru as possible each hour for Government re-imbursement

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 4) Many Canadians do not have a family Doctor.

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There is a severe shortage of doctors in Canada. They have all gone to places where they can actually make some money practicing medicine. The few who are left aren't taking on any new patients. According to the Canadian Medical Association 14% of Canada's population does not have a family doctor.

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5) Don't require emergency treatment as you may wait for hours in the emergency room waiting for treatment.

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Well, that can even be the case in the United States. You only go to the head of the line if you're about to die. But the wait times in Canadian emergency rooms are legendary, to say the least.

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6) Shirley's dad cut his hand on a power saw a few weeks back and it required that his hand be put in a splint - to our surprise we had to pay $125. for a splint because it is not covered under health care plus we have to pay $60. for each visit for him to check it out each week.


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7) Shirley's cousin was diagnosed with a heart blockage. Put on a waiting list Died before he could get treatment.

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 According to the "National Post" the average wait for 12 critical procedures is 18.4 weeks. For bypass surgery the average wait time is 26 weeks. Cataract surgery requires 25 weeks. Hip replacement, 16 weeks. Worse than that are the poor outcomes due to complications created by the long times.

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8) Government allots so many operations per year. When that is done no more operations, unless you go to your local newspaper and plead your case and embarrass the government then money suddenly appears.

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One thing they don't point out is that this goes beyond surgery. When the Canadian Medical plan runs out of money (which usually happens early in September) only critical patients can be seen by a doctor or cared for until after January 1 of the next year. Government control of medical care always results in rationing of that care.

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9)The Government takes great pride in telling us how much more they are increasing the funding for health care but waiting lists never get shorter. Government just keeps throwing money at the problem but it never goes away. But they are good at finding new ways to tax us, but they don't call it a tax anymore it is now a user fee.

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We already complain about insurance company bureaucrats making health care decisions for us. Can you imagine what will happen if government  bureaucrats start making those decisions. Single payer government controlled medical care in the U.S. will result in poorer medical care and much higher taxes. The estimated costs that Hillary has placed on her plan are already known to be a small fraction of what the "REAL" cost will be (and that is going to be paid by you in taxes and premiums). 

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10) A friend needs an operation for a blockage in her leg but because she is a smoker they will not do it. Despite paying into the health care system all these years. My friend is 65 years old. Now there is talk that maybe we should not treat fat and obese people either because they are a drain on the health care system. Let me see now, what we want in Canada is a health care system for healthy people only. That should reduce our health care costs.

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As I said, when the government controls your health care you will always have rationing. In addition, when Liberals control the system, they will use it to force people to conform to certain behaviors that they have deemed to be proper. Remember, Liberals see all of us as bumbling idiots who don't know what's good for us and we must rely on THEM to tell us how to live. 

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11) Forget getting a second opinion, what you see is what you get.
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Remember, most of the good doctors have already left. It's hard enough to get to see one of the doctors that are left. Do you honestly think you'd be able to see a second doctor to get an opinion. Surely you jest. Nor can you choose your doctor. And forget about specialists.  

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12) I can spend what money I have left after taxes on booze, cigarettes, junk food and anything else that could kill me but I am not allowed by law to spend my money on getting an operation I need because that would be jumping the queue. I must wait my turn except if I am a hockey player or athlete then I can get looked at right away. Go figger. Where else in the world can you spend money to kill yourself but not allowed to spend money to get healthy.

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Canadian health care facilities are not allowed to supply care to private citizens even if those citizens are willing to pay for it. That's why they come to the United States. However, there is a growing number of private health care providers in Canada who are providing care to people who can afford to pay for it. Medical care for the rich only.

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13) Oh did I mention that immigrants are covered automatically at tax payer expense having never contributed a dollar to the system and pay no premiums.

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That's true. The best some provinces have come up with is to make illegals wait 90 days before they can be treated for the first time.

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14) Oh yeh we now give free needles to drug users to try and keep them healthy. Wouldn't want a sickly druggie breaking into your house and stealing your things. But people with diabetes who pay into the health care system have to pay for their needles because it is not covered but the health care system.

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Diabetic supplies, including needles, are covered under the Canadian Health Care Plan. He got that wrong. But they do give free needles to junkies.

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I send this out not looking for sympathy but as the election looms in the states you will be hearing more and more about universal health care down there and the advocates will be pointing to Canada. I just want to make sure that you hear the truth about health care up here and have some food for thought and informed questions to ask when broached with this subject.
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Step wisely and don't make the same mistakes we have.

15 Comments |  Add a Comment

Member Comments Total Comments: 15
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Meb452m read my blog
Oct 19, 2007 | 6:56 PM

Great post jfore !

J_Darrowin read my blog view my photos
Oct 20, 2007 | 7:19 AM

Just goes to show you, we may not have the best health care plan, and it could certainly stand some improvements, but we could do a lot worse too.

I don't know what the answer for our health care system is, but I'm convinced that it will come out of the private sector, not under the government.

RNC08 read my blog view my photos
Oct 20, 2007 | 9:18 AM

Good post , but I just don't think that people who are willing to sport ideas like this have a brain in their head. You are wasting your time trying to prove anything with “facts” to liberals who are convinced that they can do it “better” and no reality will change their position.
Fact is you can go to any American hospital and you will be able to meet people from country that have Socialized medicine who are here paying for service in our health care system....because they would die if they waited for service in their own country.

shadows read my blog
Oct 20, 2007 | 2:53 PM

Don't trust things where the author is unknown for some reason. Sources of the information need to be known to assess the reliability. I have heard a few of the same complaints by some Canadians when I worked in Canada, but I have also heard some very good things about there system.

The tax comparison is one point that is interesting since the difference seems to be about 7 percent. Health care insurance premiums with deductables, co-pays and drug benefits, can easily extend beyond 7 percent of a families income.

RNC08 read my blog view my photos
Oct 20, 2007 | 3:09 PM

Now you are just blowing smoke out your butt Shadow the offset is not 7% ! You are deliberately playing a numbers game , because the total cost is distributed across all forms of tax income , sales , profit on companies etc you “claim” a 7% tax will pay for uniform health care when the reality is that only one third of this country works (on the books) so they will pay for ALL health care right there you have 21% ! But it is bigger than that Sweden is published and the tax base is 66% of the gross income...add to that the FACT that no one who has ever had to use the health care system in Canada has ever been satisfied with it and we come to another very real truth , “Universal health care” is good coverage for anyone who does not have any health problems!

shadows read my blog
Oct 21, 2007 | 2:05 PM

RNC08, it makes me a little uneasy to think that you are paying that much attention to my "butt." However in reply to your statement, I was merely using the 40%----33% differential that was stated in the original post/blog in case you didn't read it. I didn't claim "a 7% tax will pay for uniform health care." Your comprehension seems to be slipping a bit, or else you need to have your vision checked.

I don't why you brought Sweden into the conversation since I thought this thread was about the Canadian Health Care system. Sweden is supposed to be a nice place to visit, but I have never been there.

I was particularly interested in your statement: "add to that the FACT that no one who has ever had to use the health care system in Canada has ever been satisfied with it and we come to another very real truth.." It is difficult for me to imagine that you have talked to every Canadian about their opinion/satisfaction. In fact, it sounds like once again you are parroting some talking points fed to you.

Frankly I would be surprised if you even knew where Canada was located, but giving you the benefit of the doubt, have you ever been there for any length of time? It's quite a drive from Florida.

I wouldn't pretend to know how much a health care plan here in the U.S. would cost. In fact, from what I have read, it would very much depend on the plan and the defined benefits. As far as me "deliberately playing a numbers game..," if you would care to compare your post/comment with mine I think that you will find that yours contains many more numbers.

BTW, I kno

shadows read my blog
Oct 21, 2007 | 2:06 PM

Continued)
BTW, I know people that have had to wait for hours to see an emergency room doctor here in the states, and I have known several that after being admitted in the emergency room have had to wait as much as two days for a room in the hospital.

RNC08 read my blog view my photos
Oct 22, 2007 | 1:29 PM

O I see I am “wrong” because I have not talked to every Canadian , but you are right if you know of a few ? Yes I put more numbers in my post but I did not pull them from thin air. I have been in Sweden and England and I can assure you that the weight at a hospital in both of those country's for emergency care is much longer than it is here. When I speak about “satisfaction with Canadian health care” I base a lot of my statement on people who I have meet at hospitals here in the states and the fact that it is very common for a citizen of that country to come here and pay cash for medical attention they just can't get in Canada...when did you ever hear of someone going to Canada for medical attention?
As far as “cost” I am very concerned because medicine in this country now costs 89% of our total GDP , and according to “DME vendor” (a trade magazine for people who sell medical equipment) by 2010 total medical expenditure in this country will by 92% of our GDP. Now that is easy math 92 cents out of every dollar you make will be required in taxes to pay for “health care” !........

RNC08 read my blog view my photos
Oct 22, 2007 | 1:35 PM

But hey like you said we will just have the government decide what is and is not “necessary” based on cost and that will be good for everyone!...Well everyone who does not fall victim to an “inconveniently expensive” medical problem...will the government help bury the victims of its “cost control” medical system ?
Do I appear to be paying you special attention Shadows ? I just often pick your comment to speak directly to. I will try to pull back from the accusations of “premeditation” in your comments....

shadows read my blog
Oct 22, 2007 | 5:51 PM

RNC08, once again you have gotten caught up in those talking points and I am beginning to be concerned about your reading comprehension and retention. Where did I say that "we will just have the government decide what is and is not “necessary” based on cost and that will be good for everyone!..?" BTW, the drug formularies, etc. in existing major medical plans already decide what is best for patients, instead of the patient's doctor.

As far as being right or wrong, there again I did not make such a statement....I simply said that "I have heard a few of the same complaints by some Canadians when I worked in Canada, but I have also heard some very good things about their system." I don't know where you came up with the idea that someone has to be right and someone has to be wrong in this discussion.

I did however question "factual" statements in the original post without any name on the "letter" and/or any indication of data or information sources. The issue is too important and potentially expensive to accept or reject based on such subjective information.

You obviously aren't the only person that is concerned about the escalating costs of health care in the U.S., but it is a free market approach that we are dealing with here. By definition, it should work.....free enterprise, capitalism, etc.

I heard at least one of the republican candidates say that he would make it legal for people to cross state lines when purchasing health insurance which would increase competition and possibly lower prices. But that is government involvement once again and I'm not s

shadows read my blog
Oct 22, 2007 | 5:58 PM

continued) But that is government involvement once again and I'm not sure that that would fly with the insurance industry or with the doctors. So they will probably lobby against such governmental intrusion and win over the taxpayers.

In other words, this health care and health care insurance issue is a mess and reflects greed. But it appears that candidates of both parties want the government to be involved in some way.

Now regarding your statement about paying attention to me, I usually enjoy my exchanges with you. However your comment about my "butt" was a bit disconcerting. It might be better to stick to the issues rather than making such remarks or introducing discussion about unrelated matters.

jfore read my blog
Oct 22, 2007 | 6:33 PM

Shadows, Just an aside to your conversation. The original e-mail is from a Canadian citizen speaking from his own experience so anything he says has to be considered anecdotal. There is no way to verify anything he says other than take it as an "eyewiness" account. You either believe him or you don't. I'm inclined to believe him siimply because what he says has been said by other Canadians I know. Take it for what it's worth. The portions of the post that are in Ital. are mine and were meant to clarify his general statements. I didn't get real detailed. Everything there has been verified. Any facts where I don't specifically mention the source were taken from various Canadian Newspapers and I tried to get at least two that agreed before I cited what they said. Just thought I'd clear that up.

Many similar experiences are reported in the U.K.

dks75 read my blog
Oct 23, 2007 | 8:34 AM

I'm a Canadian Citizen. Ive never had complaints or problems with the Canadian system. Maybe I just might need to go to the ER on DEC 26 after eating to much turkey, cause I have a belly ache. Plus if your paying 55% Canadian income tax I feel bad for you. Get a better accountant with your 6 figure income, you can afford one. I think alot of complaints tend to come out of areas where they have an extremely high cost of living.

Really my the wife and I have roughly the same cash flow here in FL as we did in Western Canada. We loose in some areas and gain in others.

shadows read my blog
Oct 23, 2007 | 2:05 PM

Jfore, thanks for the clarification. What I have previously heard from Canadians has been both positive and negative, which seems realistic. The U.S. health care system has most recently drawn more critical and/or negative reviews.

I noticed that dks75, a Canadian Citizen, weighed in on the issue and seems to confirm a couple of my points. Unfortunately, partisan talking points often get in the way of fact finding and it is to the detriment of the citizens when that happens. Using generalizations so strongly should always raise some questions in a healthy/productive debate.

didaskalos read my blog
Oct 26, 2007 | 7:05 PM

Excellent post Jfore. It was long but well worth working through in a reflective way.

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